Interview With An Atheist Continues . . . . Questions on Morality

Q.  If there’s no God, where do you get your morals from?

A.  The same place you get yours.  You don’t get your morality from God or the Bible.  Morality is at the deepest part of us.  In fact, what morality is and why we have it is on the frontier of neuroscience.  And philosophers have been trying to tackle it since there have been philosophers.  Even evolutionary biologists have things to say on it.

If you believe that God is the reason for your morality, then you present a basket with many holes.  Because if morality is from God, then why is there so much suffering in the world?  Why do children die every day from starvation?  Where is this God with his morals?  Why does he let bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people?

And the Bible?  Well, I can go through and pick out all of the scriptures that say slavery is okay, stoning your daughter to death if she won’t marry the man that raped her is okay, killing all of the men, women, and children of a certain people, killing homosexuals, killing witches, killing adulterers, burning to death a priest’s daughter who fornicates, and I can go on and on and on.  The point being - you do not get your morality from the Bible, and if you do, then you are NOT very moral.

The point is, our morality is more than just God or religious text.  For instance, if morality were dependent upon religion, then you would expect every culture with different religions throughout time to have different moral codes.  Yet actions such as murder and stealing were considered wrong by all cultures and religions.  Common themes echo throughout independent civilizations.

So where does our morality come from?  The short and sweet of it?  I don’t know.  Nobody really does, but we can make educated guesses based on evidence.  We can continue to search for these answers.  And it’s okay to say that you don’t know.  Do you know why?

BECAUSE NO ONE KNOWS!!!!!

Saying that God/the Bible are the foundation of all human morality is an ignorant blanket statement that is not provable.  There are older religions that had there own moral code - so why not see them as the foundation?  There are older commandments than the simple ten Exodus outlines, so why not see those as the foundation?

Look at the Code of Hammurabi.  A Babylonian king that lived some 300 years or so before Moses and recorded 282 laws, 34 of which are unreadable.  If you make comparisons between the Code of Hammurabi and the Law of Moses, you will find a great deal of similarity.  So why not follow this Code of Hammurabi and view it as the superior source of moral judgment?

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/hamcode.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

http://www.ushistory.org/civ/4c.asp

There is only one honest answer to the question of where do we get our morals and that is “I don’t know”.  It is an admittance, and once that is admitted, then we can have a discussion about opinion.

And in my opinion, morality is as complicated as anything we have.  But, I treat it as everything else that is complicated.  The human body and the human brain are complicated and have evolved over time to what they are now.  And morality with it.  You can even see how morality has evolved since the dawn of civilization.  Since that time, our moral code has gotten more and more complex and well-defined.

Even in the animal kingdom, you see a certain amount of it.  Loyalty, empathy, grief, etc.  If you were to take an evolutionary biologist’s opinion, morality must be ingrained in our very genetics.  From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense.  Our morality helps us survive as a species.

And that whole bag of chips is rather deep, so I won’t venture any further into it.  At least not yet.  But the point is clear; morality is not determined by religion or theism.

Interview with an Atheist

This will be a fairly simple format for this new blog.  This is my way of accomplishing several important things at once.  I get some things off my chest by using the written word to address oft-asked questions without getting interrupted, berated, or criticized - at least until I have had me initial say.  It also allows me an opportunity to clarify my position, and I will do my best to be respectful while firm.

Finally, I’m hoping it offers the reader something.  Whether you have known me for a long time and are distraught at my change from fundamentalist Christian to atheist, or whether you have a similar experience and are just looking for someone else to voice reasons and arguments that you can relate to.  Or maybe you don’t know me, and you’re just curious.

What follows will be done in a Q&A format.  The questions I will be listing will be the most common and frequently asked questions that I receive.  I will answer these questions at length, and for the most part, I will stick to the facts and logic.  However, there are some questions that are more like judgemental pronouncements.  On these questions, you may detect sarcasm.  I intend this.

Without further ado, I present to you, the interview . . . .

Q. Above all else, what was it that made you leave Christianity?

A. I call it the “Christian Linchpin Argument.”  You could group the entire Old Testament into that, but I focus on Adam and Eve.  If the story of Adam and Eve isn’t true, then the entire case of Christianity is untrue.  You could say that other stories like the Hebrew exodus out of Egypt, and the miracles that were supposedly worked there, or the story of Noah or Jonah or Samson could take away from Christianity’s argument.  But none of those stories are a true linchpin.  Adam and Eve is a linchpin.

Christianity is founded upon Judaism.  So, outside of the telling of Jesus in the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament that follows, the very first few chapters of Genesis are the most important.  The story of creation, and more importantly, the story of Adam and Eve.  God’s creation of human beings is key.  Because without the events that supposedly followed, there is absolutely no reason for Christianity.

Adam and Eve bring into the world ORIGINAL SIN, which is the foundation of everything.  It is the reason we are mortal, the reason we are cursed, the reason the world sucks, the reason we are such vile creatures, and the reason we are in constant need of redemption.

If “original sin” is a fabrication, then all of Christianity falls apart.  And it’s not hard to disbelieve.  Creation in six days, man made from dirt, woman made from man’s rib, tree of life, tree of knowledge of good and evil, a talking snake, and consumption of fruit damning all of humanity until a benevolent God can figure out a way to fix things.

And there are so many questions.  An insane amount of them.  Some I’ve had for a long, long, long time.  Here are a few important ones.

Question 1:  If God is an all knowing being, exists outside of time, and sees all things past, present, and future, why did he create humans when he knew they would fail? What was the point?

Question 2:  Why would knowledge of good and evil be linked to sin?  Knowledge is a good thing, right?  Why would ignorance be more valuable?

Question 3:  Why did God panic about the man and woman eating of the tree of life after original sin?  Would this amazing tree outstrip his ability to make man and woman mortal?  If so, then how is he all-powerful? (Genesis 3:22)

Question 4:  Why does Satan even exist?  If you’re an all-powerful God, why not destroy your enemy whenever you want?  Why entrap him, but allow him to have certain dominion, only to throw him into a lake of fire that will burn and torture him forever before the end of time?

Question 5:  Why did God create man and women twice?  Generic versions that were apparently set free to roam and “be fruitful and multiply” and then Adam and Eve in a garden?  (Genesis 1:26 - 1:30).

Question 6:  After Cain killed Abel, how was there a town/city/territory already waiting for him, and if he was the only one, how would he have populated it?  Why was he worried about other people killing him?  He’s the only remaining son from the first supposed couple on the planet.

Question 7:  Why does all physical evidence refute the idea that the universe and all it contains were created in six days?  Why is there so much evolutionary evidence that we are a part of the primate family?  Why does each new discovery point to those scientific theories and not traditional religious views?

I could go on and on and on with them, and I have follow-up questions to all of them. I could probably dedicate entire blog posts to each of them, but let’s keep this brief. The point is, all one has to do is doubt the story of Adam and Eve.  Even if you take the position that perhaps their existence is not completely true or maybe it’s in doubt, then the entire position of Christianity is also.  Adam and Eve are the foundation of the Christian Religion, not Jesus.  He’s the top of the pyramid, while Adam and Eve are the bottom.  And if you step back to take a look at the whole picture, you realize that this pyramid was built upside down.  Without much effort, it topples.

Q. Wouldn’t you say that you’re just angry?

A. What does that have to do with anything?  Sure, I feel anger like every other human being.  Don’t you get angry?  And when one understands that they have been trapped in a religion that is no different than any other religion and have been told that it is infallible and completely true only to find out that it is neither of those things, one tends to have feelings of anger.  Also sadness.  Also hurt.  Perhaps you should substitute those in for anger.

But I know what you’re getting at.  What you really mean is that I must be bitter.  I must be angry at God.  I must have something that is driving me in this direction.  No sane person would be as deep a Christian like I was and then just turn away.  After all that God has done for me?  The only plausible explanation is the that my mental faculties are in disarray, Satan has gotten a hold of me, and now I am but a shell being taken for a long, wicked ride.

A pause for a moment.  To those of you who truly feel this way, I wish to convey both my sympathy and outrage.  I feel pity on you because you will never understand anything outside of the tiny bubble you have entrapped yourself in.  The only way you can interpret data that conflicts with your worldview is to pronounce it wrong, wicked, evil, or misguided.  You are completely convinced that you know the truth of it all, and refuse to see any other position.  For you, I feel sad, because life is so complex and full.  Your ears are closed, and your eyes are shut to it.  This makes me feel great sadness, because even as a fundamentalist Christian, I did not have either the audacity nor the arrogance to live my life that way.  And yet you do, and I can think of nothing more hellish than that.

But talking to you is absolutely ridiculous.  There is no point to it, and I’m growing weary of it.  You have no intention of listening, and apparently only wish to berate me to make yourself feel better.  When I give you no response or block you from messaging me, do not be surprised.  What you have to say is a waste of my time, and quite honestly, yours.

Luckily, only a few have fit into this category.  I have largely received true concern and honest questions, to which I am grateful and eager to answer.  So, back to the topic.

Believe it or not, I feel no anger toward God.  I don’t think he/she/it is there.  I have no reason to.  Took me a long time to see that.  I was stuck in the circular logic of all religions, to which I will offer a demonstration of dialogue.  It is how I thought at perhaps my most fundamentalist stage vs. how I think now.

Christian Me:  Do you believe in God?

Now Me:  Should I?

Christian Me:  Yes, he is wonderful.  He is everything, and he loves you, and he wants you to believe in him.

Now Me:  Well, which God should I believe in?

Christian Me:  The God of the Bible.

Now Me:  So . . . Christianity or Judaism?

Christian Me:  Oh no, Christianity is the one and only true way.

Now Me:  Okay, but what about the other religions?

Christian Me:  They are false.  There’s no proof that they are real.

Now Me:  And there’s proof your God exists?

Christian Me:  Oh yes.  It’s all in the Bible.

Now Me:  Right . . . . but that’s an ancient collection of books . . . . which all of the other religions have . . . . so how do I know that the Bible can be trusted?

Christian Me:  Because the Bible says that it is the true word of God.

Now Me:  So the Bible that I’m questioning the fundamental validity of confirms itself, therefore proving itself . . . by itself?

Christian Me:  Well it says it’s the word of God.

Now Me:  Yeah . . . so does the book of Mormon.

Christian Me:  No, Mormons aren’t Christians.

Now Me:  My point exactly.

Christian Me:  What do you mean?

Now Me:  I mean by your logic, if the Harry Potter series claimed it was a divinely inspired true story, then we should all be looking for a hidden wizarding world and fighting for muggle rights.

Christian Me:  Don’t read Harry Potter!  It’s witchcraft and Gandalf is gay.

Now Me:  Okay, this is getting weird.

It’s called circular reasoning.  God is real because the Bible says so and the Bible is the word of God, so God is real.  Circle.  And the word “faith” is inserted anytime Christianity is backed into a corner or shown the circular reasoning.  But the more and more I tried to find out what exactly faith was, the more I was disappointed.

To sum it up.  Faith is what you have as an out.  When confronted, faith is your savior from reason.  Because faith is the absence of reason.  Example?

Now Me:  Why do you believe the Bible is true?

Christian Me:  I have faith that it is the word of God.

Now Me:  But only the Bible is the word of God?

Christian Me:  Of course, that’s what the Bible says.

Now Me:  But how do you know it is, other than it telling you that it is.  (Which is why everyone else of every other religion believe they’re right, too).

Christian Me:  I have faith that it is.  I just believe it is.

Now Me:  But why do you believe it is.

Christian Me:  I just do.  I’ve had so many experiences that prove to me that God is real.  That I have found the one and only true way.

Now Me:  You understand that people around the world from other religions/belief-systems/cults explain their faith in the same way?  Base it off of things they’ve experienced or seen or felt that proved to them their belief was true?

Christian Me:  Yes, but what I experienced is real.

This is called the ego stroke.  And it feels gooooooooooood.  It feels good to know that what you believe is true.  That all those little signs you see, all those little things you feel, all those experiences you’ve had PROVE that God is real and that you KNOW him and that you are RIGHT.

So, allow me to burst the bubble.  It should be fairly obvious and irrefutable that humans are naturally pattern recognizing.  That’s why you can see shapes in the clouds. 

Put puzzles together.  From a very early age.  It’s one of the first cognitive functions, if not the first cognitive function we exercise.  We connect dots.  A valuable ability for any living thing.

But it’s not perfect.  Far from it.  It’s been proven wholly unreliable.  You see false patterns all the time.  Make false connections.  For instance, the moon appears larger in when it is on the horizon, and as it travels “upward” into the sky, it appears smaller. Closer at the horizon, further away when it’s higher in the sky.  But we know with absolute certainty that the moon is no closer to you when it appears on the horizon than when it is higher in the sky.  Science has confirmed it over and over without a shred of doubt.  Yet, despite this knowledge, the moon will continue to appear larger on the horizon.  And there’s nothing you or I can do about it.  We will always see the moon as larger on the horizon.

How about rorschach tests?  Why can you make patterns and images out of random ink splotches?  What about the man in the moon?  The Virgin Mary in a piece of grilled cheese?  Jesus in an oyster shell?  It’s called Apophenia.  Making connections that are actually not connected.

It can be seen in sports. Teams hit the playoffs, and suddenly players stop shaving.  If they shave they lose.  Yet, both teams are full of unshaven players and one team always loses.  Or Apophenia can be as complex as supernatural experiences.

And when your view is already compromised, you see patterns in things that aren’t really there.  When you wholeheartedly believe in Jesus, you will see things that reinforce your viewpoint.  And you know what - THAT’S OKAY.

Why is it okay?  Because we all do that in every facet of our lives.  If you are a staunch Republican, you will naturally gravitate towards news, talking points, and people that share your views.  It’s reinforcement.  And the same if you’re a complete left-wing Socialist.  It even happens to me in my natural political leanings, and my atheism.  It cannot be helped.

And that’s okay.

The real key is understand that this is what happens.  That your experiences are not air-tight, bullet-proof things that prove anything.  There are people who claim to have seen UFO’s or claim to have even been abducted by aliens who have passed polygraph tests.  Does that mean you should believe them or that the events they retell are true?

Of course not.  And that’s not to dismiss them or the event they went through.  It is simply a firm statement of skepticism.  You cannot just believe it because they claim an experience.  And it requires no judgement on your part.  You are not calling them a fake, a liar, a fraud, or mentally deranged.  You are only saying that I cannot believe something so fantastical without ample evidence.

You, me, and everyone else does this all the time without blinking.  People who believe bigfoot is real, might not believe in mermaids or UFO’s because of lack of evidence. But something in their life pointed to bigfoot, and the more experiences they gather, the more “evidence” they have.

The key for me, and for - I would say - any self-identifying skeptic, is that you recognize this trait not only in others, but in yourself.  And realize that you are biased, even if you not want to be.  That bias is what makes one of Richard Dawkins’ arguments so intriguing to me.

He uses this argument often, and it’s a really good one.  Because you were born in America, you are more than likely Christian and will stay Christian.   But if you are born in India, you are very likely Hindu and will stay Hindu.  If you are born in Afghanistan, you are more than likely Muslim and will stay Muslim.  Why?

Because, each of those countries has a predominant religion, and you are born to parents that follow that religion.  I was born to Pentecostal Christian parents, and predictably, I identified myself as Pentecostal Christian.  If I had been born in India to Hindu parents, what would I identify as?  The question has a predictable answer.

And because I have been born, raised, and previously identified as Pentecostal Christian, I have innate biases grown in my mind.  My focus when talking about religion is on Christianity - specifically fundamentalist evangelical Christianity.  Why?  Because I have biases that lead me there.  That’s why I don’t hear the word “religion” and naturally think of Jainism, but instead Christianity.  My experiences point me there, and my pattern recognition applies there.

I understand that was a long answer for a short question, but sometimes you get on a roll.

Q. Isn't atheism just another religion?

A. No.  It’s the absence of it.  There’s no tradition.  No rule you have to adhere to just because.  No ultimate truth.  No mysticism.  No superstition.  We have no one book to follow.  No infallible people to follow or worship.  No infallible figures of any kind, divine or mortal.

And you may argue that it’s a belief, but it isn't.  It’s an opinion.  I hold no overt loyalty toward atheism.  It’s my opinion based on evidence.  To get straight to the facts, everyone is actually an agnostic, including the most religious.  No one can prove whether God does or does not exist.  Therefore, in that sense, I recognize my agnosticism.  Agnosticism reflects reality.

My atheism is my opinion.  I have reached the conclusion of atheism, as I have reached other conclusions in life.  And I’m not ashamed of it, afraid of it, or willing to hide it.

And on that third one, I've found problems.  Because a lot of people seem to believe that this is a complete choice.  And the power of choice is incredible, and I don’t underestimate it.  It is the one thing we have in this life.  Choice.

But the idea that you can choose your conclusions is laughable.  You conclude what you conclude.  You are wired a certain way, and there are large parts of you that are indeed unchangeable.  Your temperament, your height, your skin color, your genetics, your history.  The brain is a physical thing, and consciousness is as well.  Therefore the thoughts, opinions, conclusions you have are indeed physically made through a complex neural network that can be studied and dissected.

Saying that one can choose to be a Christian is an oversimplification of the matter.  One has to believe the Christian message to choose Christianity.  And I don’t.  I can’t choose to believe something that I don’t believe.  I can’t just change my opinion by mere choice - there has to be more than that.  And even if I could, why would I change it by choice only?  That would be like asking a Christian to become a Muslim just because they can.  It makes zero sense.

The reality is, I had two choices.  Pretend to believe, or be honest.  I chose the latter because I don’t like hiding, and I think it was the more courageous, less deceitful choice.